ypsi~dixit

here, here! brought up with very little money myself, i would've loved a uniform too to escape the jeers of dumb kids.
most of the schools in Detroit have uniforms for their kids. it makes good sense.
my daughter goes to a small charter school and the kids are just so laid back and they have this great community feel to it that I've seriously never seen nor heard of any kid bullying or jeering at another for mean-spirited reasons. No uniforms, but lots of respect for each other.

Amanda: That sounds like an ideal school situation. And a rare one. I think it's great that the kids there don't harp on silly old clothes differences.

In a more "industrial" high school, I think kids are more concerned with name brands, but I could be fogey-ly wrong.

At any rate, if my mom had caved, I might be a different person now, God forbid. So I'm grateful she didn't. I have better things to do (nasal irrigation! seed sprouting!) than to spend time and money at Old Navy, Heaven knows.

I am also a Value World (I still want to say Value Village), and Ann Arbor Thrift shopper. I'm not opposed to uniforms per se, but my older son went to Ardis when they had uniforms, and it was kind of a pain because I had to have several sets of the approved clothing items available so that I wasn't constantly having to launder them. If I couldn't find them used, I had to buy them --horrors-- at full price. Now, he's a sixth grader at West Middle School in Ypsi and he wears some crazy get-ups(he's responsible for actually putting the clothes together) but I have never, ever heard of anyone making fun of him. He went through a little phase where he wore two different colored soccer socks pulled all the way up with shorts. Not only was he not made fun of, but I think his creativity was encouraged.



My husband said when he was growing up he was teased mercilessly for wearing K-Mart clothes when he went to a private Catholic school but not when he switched to a public high school.

Stacey: I find it encouraging that a young person with an interesting sock choice is not only not mocked but admired for creativity.

Your husband's experience in a private vs. public school also seems to defy my perhaps stereotypical ideas of the culture of school conformity.

I'm neutral on school uniforms. I'm hard pressed to see how uniforms will solve the problem discussed in the Ann Arbor News yesterday: that while African American students account for 61 percent of all middle school and high school students, they accounted for 82.7 percent of the suspensions. The article touted the dress code as a solution, and I don't see that.

I've always felt that uniforms were a bit of a cop out for educational leaders. It short-cuts around core issues of choice, responsibility and accountability, eliminating these important values from the mix rather than nurturing them and fostering kids with the ability to make wise choices.

If clothes are presenting a problem at school, I think we have a duty to get to the heart of the problem, solve it and use it as an opportunity to teach and to learn rather than simply ignore it by mandating uniforms.

Just my $0.02.

i wore a uniform for all 12 of my years at catholic school and, when you look at the newsletters from the alumni reunions, it's clear we're all fashion victims. i think we missed some formative years. meredith

I have to agree with Cam that the uniforms are a cop out. No one has ever really demonstrated that uniforms in and of themselves make any difference. My kids went to Ardis when they had uniforms and from the time I spent in the building I saw absolutely no benefit as far as behavior.

As for kids not teasing each other over clothes, I have always felt that to be a bogus argument. The reality is that kids that tease will find something to tease and bully about. If the clothes are a non-issue, they will find something else. You can't expect behavior to be changed by making all the kids look the same. You have to deal with the reasons why the teasing kids do it, and teach the kids how to deal with deal with teasing and bullying.

I also wore uniforms for 12 years and I think they are very effective ...at encouraging conformity and causing kids to value it. I think it's part of breaking kids' individuality. Preparation for war? To be a good consumer? Perhaps these are too extreme, but look at places where uniforms are universal, like Japan.

Of course, I think the USA is too extremely individualistic, too far to the other pole. But suffice to say, I don't support uniforms in public schools.

I have seen young children in schools with uniforms. You still see the socio-economic stratification. What you see is the child who cannot afford clothes without the uniform policy, coming to school in very dirty uniforms, a few pieces of clothing that is rarely washed. The pecking order still exists. Children at risk are so in any clothing.

It turns out that over in the Lincoln Park school district, parents are in such an uproar over the dress code that they're circulating a petition to fire their superintendent.

Trusty: Hmm, my take on it is a bit different. Whereas I can understand your point, I think mandating uniforms reduces the amount of visual noise. I think it's possible to both mandate uniforms and still pay attention to the deeper issues. Meanwhile the uniforms make the whole picture a bit simpler for all, one fewer distraction.

Meredith: that is funny, I had to laugh.

Sam: it sounds as though you and Trusty Getto are thinking along the same lines. That's a good point--kids will find something to pick on if they want to.

Lisa: It's funny that in your and my case, we both prefer the opposite of what we grew up with.

I have a different take on the individuality issue. I tend to think that by making the clothes all the same, and therefore sort of invisible, the students' personalities are thrown into higher relief.

Maryd: that's a good point: social stratification is still visible, in the sad way you mention.

Well, I actually liked my gradeschool uniforms and hated the high school ones. [O the difference between cotton & polyester!] I was from a poor family and we did always have to buy others' cast offs, or just one uniform when others had five. BUT I was glad that I didn't have to show up in street clothes, which would have been far worse. Yet, I hated the facelessness and the feeling of being just a number. Especially in Catholic school, the drive to reduce individuals to an obediant member of the flock was soul-destroying.

BTW, I don't think that's a result of the religious aspect. I think it's a widespread urge in our society to suppress children, and making them wear uniforms is just one manifestation.

The new code offers specifics for banned clothes it calls "distracting.'' Those banned items include halter tops, exposed midriffs, hot pants, backless outfits, spaghetti straps, single shoulder tops, see-through clothing, low-cut necklines and tank or tube tops. It also says "'sagging' of outer garments is not acceptable.'' Hats and other head coverings, except for those worn for religious reasons, are also banned.

Hmmmm, this seems really specious. If they examined those suspensions by gender, I'm sure they'd find that the vast majority are male. Yet, of what is banned, almost ALL are elements of female attire!

This response just seems like the usual tightening of restrictions and negative reinforcement (punishment) rather than something constructive.

My husband went to a Catholic grade school, and he echoes the "they'll find a way to tease you anyway" refrain. He says that your glasses, your shoes, your jewelry, your belt....something that you wear will be criticized regardless, and used as ahortcut for assigning social status.

I'm in the "it's a cop out" camp, too - it is an incredibly easy way for a school board or administrators to look like they're doing something without having to spend a cent (maybe they can even make some $ if they sell the uniforms?) or spend any time or thought addressing the actual issues. I'd like to see some evidence that uniform codes change behavior in any way.

I dont think uniforms do much to improve anything. I know that my friends who had to wear them in high school always managed to make them plenty individual. I also know that social class issues are not erased by school uniforms in any way.

I had a weird high school experience. My family has always been upper middle class but for most of my high school years, we lived in the city of Detroit. Since I didnt want to go to Catholic school, I had to go to public school which meant that at my school, I was probably in the top 10% as far as family wealth. Most of the kids in my little clique were similarly wealthy but not everyone was. Luckily for them, somehow it became very cool to shop at Value Village. So it didnt matter if one was wealthy or not in our group. A uniform would have made us pretty unhappy because we were using our clothes to rebel. In fact, I bought a catholic school uniform from Value Village and wore that to school which prompted comments from my parents along the lines of "Ok? You didnt want to go to private school because you didnt want to wear a uniform and now you are wearing a uniform. huh?" which, of course, was *exactly* the reaction I was going after.

On the other hand, there was that one clique in the school that seemed to be on top of the heirarchy that practically had a uniform of their own. $80 jeans (in 1980's dollars!), fancy shirts, Gucci or Coach handbags, etc There were some really poor kids who actually would get jobs after school just so they could buy all that stuff so they could fit in with that clique. But they soon learned that their afterschool jobs couldnt buy them the yacht club membershop or address in Indian Village, Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, etc that would allow them entrance into that 'top of the heirarchy' clique.

The thing is, it was the same deal at the Catholic school my sister went to except there the addresses that would get one in with the top clique were Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, and Farmington Hills.

Clothes are just one indicator of socio-economic class. Kids who will tease other kids because of that will still do it even if there are uniforms. If you eliminate clothes as a distraction, they will come up with some other distraction or some other indicator to be distracted by. So it doesnt really get rid of the negatives that people are trying to get rid of.

At the same time, it does send the message, as Lisa pointed out, that conformity is important.

Lisa: So wearing a bishop's miter would be just dandy, I take it. :)

Lynne: I think that's a very thoughtful and sensible reply and I'm now thinking my original "uniforms remove distractions" positions was a bit simplistic.

I love your Value World Catholic school uniform story. :)

This isn't a "new" dress code. It's just a case of enforcing what has been there all along. The author of the article doesn't have a clue.

As the mother of an Ypsilanti High School student, I have to say it's about time. I've watched girls saunter into that school wearing outfits that a hooker would have considered risque. Trust me, the IQs of every boy in those girls' classes dropped at least 25 points when one of them entered the room.

On the other side, I watched a boy step off a bus one morning and his pants, which had been below the hips to begin with, dropped to his knees. He was embarrassed, but he deserved what he got, which was a lot of ribbing from everyone around. Watching a bunch of boys walking down the halls holding onto their crotches in order to keep their pants up is not a good look.

I've also seen kids coming to school in their pajamas and fuzzy slippers. Do you really think they're mentally prepared to learn? I don't think so.

While I'm not willing to go as far as uniforms, I do want to see enforcement of the dress code. It prepares kids for the real world when they learn they have to maintain a certain standard. After all, don't we adults have to fit the dress codes, whether written or not, of our jobs?

This just seems like another example of blaming the kids for systemic problems in the school and the larger society that result the disproportionate discipline of African American kids. Kids in the most elite private schools in Ann Arbor wear pajama bottoms to school, and they get into U-M in large numbers. In fact, U-M students wear pajama bottoms as well.

This sentence troubled me: "I've watched girls saunter into that school wearing outfits that a hooker would have considered risque. Trust me, the IQs of every boy in those girls' classes dropped at least 25 points when one of them entered the room."

I am no fan of fashion that over sexualizes teenaged girls so it was hard for me to put my finger on it at first but once I started to think about it, I realised that saying that we should restrict the way a girl dresses because it distracts boys or causes them to not pay attention to their schoolwork puts the responsibility for boys' wandering eyes and minds onto the girls which is not where it should be. Boys should be responsible for the direction of their attention. Boys are not incapable of ignoring girls who are not dressed modestly.

At an extreme it is this exact same logic that puts women in some parts of the world in burkas.

Late into the discussion thread, but so timely a topic as just yesterday my second-grader complained about his neat, plain clothes that I buy (no words, numbers, or pics) that aren't 'cool' and that he wants light blue (faded) jeans and double sleeved 'skater' type shirts. I was a victim of our mom's sensibilities as well, and like sis/Ypsidixit, was teased routinely for homemade clothes. I remember especially one seventh-grade band concert which my mom had made (very well) a white and green plaid dress for me....I wore it and was laughed at the entire night by most (?) of my peers. I never wore it again. Now the same comments are surfacing, I'm sure as back then.....can't believe it in second grade.

In second grade? Man, O man.

Wow, I never knew that about the dress! Gracious! Yes, Mom is an expert seamstress and I bet it was quite pretty. I wonder if she noticed that you never wore it again. Whew, something very sad there.

Irony concerned with the passage of time:

I have in my closet a dress Mom made for herself, in Holland, when younger than me, with a groovy Op Art pattern--that actually fits me and which I love but never wear since it's so valuable to me.

Today's embarrassment sometimes becomes tomorrow's treasure?

well, yes.......whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.....
Nicky did wear his plain khaki pants and green longsleeved shirt today without any discussion...and he doesn't whine or beg...but I feel bad that he somehow feels that pressure to 'fit in'. And yes, most kids look like slobs with ratty t-shirts and track pants for school. I am a clotheshorse as much as anyone, but I know all of the secondhand stores in Lansing, and both boys have plenty of recycled clothes. It does not cost a lot to look neat and clean.
Makes me sound old fashioned! As for that dress - I wonder if it's not still in the annals of my closet at home. Do you remember one Christmas when I wanted nothing more than money so that I could buy my own clothes? Poor M + P - they obliged, so kindly...and looking back, I don't think I bought anything much different than what I was used to....

Nicky is a great kid. Good for him, and, really, you, for the fact that he didn't make a big deal out of it. I can only imagine the pressure to fit in, and it makes me a little sad.

Track pants to school? Lovely. You are spot-on--it doesn't cost a lot to look neat and presentable. As I've said interminably, I buy all my stuff at Value World, and the variety of nice, neat, modest, presentable clothes to be harvested there is incredible.

Yep. I remember that Christmas. I also remember begging for "Chic" jeans, so that I could be cool. I think I got one pair, somehow. With the fancy stitching on the pockets signitying coolness.

Made no difference though. I was one of the kids Lynne referred to, with aspirations to coolness that went unfulfilled. But as I also said, I have no regrets. Getting thrust out of the mainstream is a good education in and of itself.

Wearing my faded black VW jeans, nice VW top, and VW polar fleece jacket at present, completely comfy.