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01 augustus 2005
"Remember punch cards? I use them. Still got a box or two. Great for taking notes, they fit in VHS boxes for notes, I even print my business card on them. Sure makes people take note."
So begins a very interesting discussion on the Stilyagi discussion board.
"Our tool crib at Ford still used punch cards for inventory control until the early/mid 80s" says another person. "Just think of the concept--the data is made up out of thin air! The card is just there to organize the holes" notes another.
The posters figure out how many punch cards it'd take to read a 3-minute mp3. Answer?
"Assuming a non-Hollerith encoding with eight bits per column, and an MP3 file encoded at 128kbps CBR, there would be 36,864 cards in that deck, and the card reader would need a throughput of 205 cards per second. It might be wise to include an 8-column sequence number, however, so that a misordered deck can be repaired by a card sorter; with 72 data columns per card, the total is precisely 40,960 cards (40K cards), requiring a 228 card/second throughput." The 21 boxes of cards needed would by 5 feet 9 inches tall. That such a huge leap in technology is well within living memory astonishes Y.
Posted by ypsidixit at 01 augustus 2005 12:02
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Comments
It is amazing to me too.
Posted by: lynne at 01 augustus 2005 12:31
It's very interesting...turns out they were invented in the 19th century and used in the 1890 census, says this illustrated history. The technology comes from Jaquard looms which used (and use) punch cards to encode pattern data.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 12:42
it's interesting to reflect that this technology is still in use in other applications, such as tollbooth tickets and some punchcard voting machines.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 12:43
I remember registering for classes at EMU in the 80's using puchcards. It was an imperfect system, to say the least.
Posted by: LF at 01 augustus 2005 12:48
I had a client in South Carolina that made woven area rugs, and as recently as 8 years ago some of their looms still used Jacquard punch cards. All of those looms have since been replaced by computer-controlled looks, but it was interesting to see that old technology still in use.
Posted by: tom at 01 augustus 2005 12:48
LF: Turns out (if I'd ever heard this, I'd forgotten it) the phrase "do not fold, spindle, or mutilate" comes from punchcards and was once printed on all punch cards.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 12:53
Tom: there was a fiber artist at EMU recently who demo'd a computerized Jacquard loom. So the circle is complete; technology that emanated from looms blossoms into computers and returns to the looms.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 12:56
Player pianos, with their paper loops, are another example of the use of this technology. Here's a fascinating Wired article about how punch cards are still quietly used by numerous Fortune 500 companies including Ford. Five million new cards are, today, sold a month. Some country clubs also still use them to calculate food and drink bills.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 13:12
save eight cols. i don't think i would want to try to run 20 boxes of cards through a sorter.
Posted by: Randy Bush at 01 augustus 2005 19:48
At 200-odd cards a second, no less; I wonder if that's even mechanically possible.
Hey, I didn't notice before, but Boing Boing linked to your humble blogwriter! Zowie-wowie! FAME. FAME. FAME.
Can I get some sushi over here, please? And my drink's a little low. Thanks.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 20:49
If it's on Boing Boing, mebbe it'll make it to the blue. Woo. (pours a bit more saki in celebration).
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 20:53
One wonders who this mysterious Waxy is, whose link to me was picked up by Boing Boing. Oh, Waxy. Yoo-hoo.
OK, the fifteen minutes are up. We now return you to the usual enthralling pictures of carp and endless bike posts.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 20:56
Boing Boingers: welcome to the blog. This interesting examination of punch cards is not due to me but to a local sci fi organization in Michigan called Stilyagi. Their discussion board is unfailingly interesting and is well worth signing up. Leave a hi if you like.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 21:21
"The 21 boxes of cards needed would by 5 feet 9 inches tall."
Yeah, and if I printed the data in a single digital photo in ASCII and printed one charater per page it would fill a house. So what?
It's a really stupid comparison.
Here's a better one: a 3 minute mp3 fits on a very small reel of audio tape or a few inches of vinyl.
Or a small waxed cylinder.
Or if it's piano music, a small roll of paper.
Posted by: Geoff at 01 augustus 2005 22:47
The old '370 could actually store 12 bits/column of a hollerith card, so you could concievably reduce your tower of cards by 1/3. However, I doubt that you could hear the MP3 over the roar of the reader, if you could find one capable of 152 cards per second.
Posted by: Jim at 01 augustus 2005 23:05
Thank you for the informative and polite comment, Geoff; we all benefit from your expertise. The Stilyagi folk are a smart bunch, but you clearly outclass them. You provide zero evidence for your comparisons, so I guess we have to take them on faith.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 23:09
Welcome to the blog Jim: yes, the noise of old computers was discussed on the Stilyagi site and people wondered if you'd even hear the music above the din. We are used to quietly-humming machines but that of course was not always the case in the past.
Posted by: Laura at 01 augustus 2005 23:12
"You provide zero evidence for your comparisons, so I guess we have to take them on faith."
Audio cassette tapes. Vinyl records. Graphophone cylinders. Pianola rolls.
The point being this: if you store large amounts of data on media with very low data density, then it take up a lot of space. No surprise really, it it?
But people didn't use media with very low data densities to store their music (or photos or movies.) They used magnetic tape, vinyl and celluloid film. And it didn't take up a lot of space.
Posted by: Anonymous at 01 augustus 2005 23:48
We STILL use them at the factory I work at-as the form to be filled out to get tooling and such out of the cribs. I don't think they are read by a card reader or punched anymore, but they are still punchcards.It seems very wasteful, as many people do use them as notecards.
I took a Fortran programming class waaaay back when that was done on punchcards. For every line in the program, you needed a card. Don't drop your stack of cards,as they had to be in proper order. Of course, some dummy always did.D'oh!
Posted by: doug at 02 augustus 2005 04:52
Doug: that is amazing. May I please ask, what factory is that? Also, sorry, I don't quite understand; if they're not punched, how do you indicate what tool you need on the card?
It's odd that even after they're no longer being read by a card reader, they're still in use. It's like the ultimate twilight of the punchcard.
Posted by: Laura at 02 augustus 2005 09:03
Jim: I wouldn't trust a full column-binary encoding; too much risk of inadvertently punching a lace card that will jam up the whole works. Especially in a (theoretical) 200+cps hyperspeed reader.
Posted by: Metal Fatigue at 02 augustus 2005 12:56
Metal Fatigue: welcome to the blog. I apologize to you for not crediting your specific remarks; I took names off out of respect for people's privacy. My error. At any rate, thanks for visiting and reading.
Posted by: Laura at 02 augustus 2005 13:00
Does anybody know if these cards can be purchased by commonfolk? They were the best for note taking. Thanks
Dave
Posted by: Dave at 02 augustus 2005 13:15
Hello Dave; yes, you can price the Cardamation's punch cards here. Contact info for the Penn. Cardamation factory is at the bottom of this page.
Posted by: Laura at 02 augustus 2005 13:20
$32 for 2,000 seems reasonable, given the cool historical nature of the item and all.
Posted by: Laura at 02 augustus 2005 13:22
We just write in all the necessary information on the card-the stock number, the dept. to charge it to, etc. ,and then hand it to the crib attendant. It sure seems like we could use something a bit cheaper for this purpose.
Until 5 years ago, we used a machine that was programmed with punched tape.For the specialized job it did, it still worked just fine, until we could no longer get parts for it.
Posted by: doug at 02 augustus 2005 15:40
Very interesting. It does seem like just a slip of paper might do. I wonder why the cards are still being used.
A punched tape machine too; I haven't seen one of those in years.
Posted by: Laura at 02 augustus 2005 15:44
A friend who works on digital video software offered this scenario for punch card video:
Assumptions:
- The same 72 data columns (bytes) per card
- The same 8-byte sequence number (wraps around frequently...)
- Standard NTSC DV
- A seriously large can of WD-40 for the card reader
- The local fire department on speed-dial
- Ownership of a large block of stock in the company supplying the punch cards
We compute:
An NTSC DV stream constitutes 120000 bytes/frame. At 29.97 frames per second, this is equivalent to 3,596,400 bytes/sec. At 72 bytes per card, this is 49,950 cards per second, or 25 boxes of cards per second. To be sure of proper operation, one ought to make sure the card reader is properly lubricated.
A 30 minute wedding video that I shot recently for a friend is equivalent to just under 100 million punch cards, in particular, it would be 89,910,000 cards. That's 45,000 boxes of cards. If each box is 3 1/4" high, the stack of boxes would top 2.3 miles (== 12187.5 feet, or 146,250 inches, not counting for gravitational compression of the lower boxes of cards). They would not fit in the trunk of my car.
Computing further, we find that the little DV tape's total capacity (1 hour) would make a box of punch cards high enough to be a serious navigational hazard for coast-to-coast flights. So far, the FAA has not issued any statements regarding this concern. And, for those of you curious about that 8 byte sequence (so the card reader can keep things in order (just in case of a misfeed at these speeds)), it turns out to wrap around 14,000 times per second.
The punch card equivalents of the various HD formats are left as exercises for the reader.
Posted by: Randy Hollingsworth at 02 augustus 2005 16:40
Phew. That is mind-boggling. Pretty funny that you figured it out, though. Thanks for posting it.
not counting for gravitational compression of the lower boxes of cards
I see you really paid attention to detail here. :)
Posted by: Laura at 02 augustus 2005 16:45
By extension, how many trees would be needed to produce the 5'9" stack of cards? How much will it weigh and what will be the physical dimensions of the stack? If they are still being used today, I'm almost sure that we will not have any tree standing left. I started programming using BASIC / FORTRAN on huge Wang/DEC computers that required their own air-conditioned rooms to function properly. Only two people are allowed inside the room as their body heat affects their operation. My daughter still wonders why I have old data cassette tapes and 8" floppy disks which have attained the status of a relic.
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Posted by: Hugo at 24 augustus 2005 19:38
Hey, I read your comments about this old fashion stuff. But I have a few thousand of them with aircraft data I would like to put into an XP access listing. I have a card reader but no s/w to do the job. Any help out there?
Mert
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Way off. An eight-digit sequence number might be a problem, but eight bytes can count more cards than the planet can sustainably produce.
256^8 = 10^19 cards. Rather more than a video needs.
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